S1 E43: The National Security Crisis in Rare Earths With James Kennedy

Dustin Olsen: Hey everyone, welcome to the Rare Earth Exchanges podcast. You're joined by me, Dustin, my co-host, Daniel, and…

Dustin Olsen: our special guest, James Kennedy, who is the CEO, president of Caldera. James, thank you for joining the show. How are you?

James Kennedy: Great.

James Kennedy: Thanks for setting this up. This will be fun.

Dustin Olsen: Yeah, happy to have you here. So, James, just to dive right in. can you give our audience just a bit of your background? You've been in the industry for years. Daniel was saying you're one of the OGs. so would love to hear just a bit of your history there and…

James Kennedy: It's a little weird,…

Dustin Olsen: then kind of what you're working on today.

James Kennedy: but I bought a bankrupt iron or mine and when we were doing the engineering to bring it back online, I discovered that this deposit had these things called rare earths. Nobody told me that when I bought the mine. I actually discovered the banker's box boxes in a janitor's closet.  So I had engineers from the US, Canada, Brazil, and Australia working in the offices and I kept bringing up this rare earth stuff and they're like, "Nobody cares about that. it's nothing. Don't worry about it." So while they were busy doing their work, I'd sit in the engineering room and pour through this banker boxes. And I'm not exaggerating it. It took me about 90 days to figure the whole thing out. So this is 2008.

James Kennedy: So, the original Molly corpse bankrupt and gone. So, I find it pretty alarming. So, I write a letter to my federal congressman and senator, and I lay out the details for them, and I say, "Hey, listen.  I don't know if you the Pentagon is aware of this, but these things called critical materials are rare earths. They are used in all these technologies and they're ubiquitous across the defense industry and at this moment in time the United States doesn't have any capabilities.

James Kennedy: We do not refine. We have no metal alloy or magnet capacity whatsoever. We're totally naked and China controls all of this from top to bottom. So, both my congressman and my senator set up meetings. One is with the DA, which is the strategic reserve.  The other meeting is with the top Pentagon expert on rare earths and I'll just focus on what happened in the Pentagon. I put together this little PowerPoint slideshow sitting at the airport in front of my terminal and I get there and I go through the slides and this is the top guy and he goes, "Wow, very very interesting."

James Kennedy: Yeah, it looks like you have a pretty good solution there. That looks and I had a solution, an actual here's the problem. Here's how you fix it. so I said, " yeah, that's great, but look, I'm just a citizen here, showing concern and whatever. I mean, you actually have experts working on this, right?" And he said, "What do you mean?"  And I said, ' this is a national security issue clearly, and so you have to have somebody assigned to this or at least some other people in the private sector working on this. And he said, "No, no, we don't." And I said, how do you expect to solve national security issues like this?" And he goes, "This is exactly what he said." Well, you're here, aren't you?

James Kennedy: That was the most shocking thing. I was floored because, I realized that, one of the largest buildings in the world with god knows how many employees in it, the Pentagon. its original mission statement was procurement and logistics, right? Somebody else start the war, we'll keep it going. And they're a fail on both accounts. And so, after that, I was kind of surprised. So, I corresponded with my congressional representatives a little bit more. Then I started dabbling in it a little bit and there was nobody in the space, right? so I end up writing some papers.

00:05:00

James Kennedy: I end up going to the theme which is the largest mining and minerals conference in the world and I end up at first I did like a poster session like a student I was standing in front of a poster true story this is crazy standing in front of my poster and it's displaying this whole crisis and it's very focused on defense and I'm like this is a national security issue a lot of  people came up looking at the poster. the one guy who engaged with with me was ethnically Chinese and I strongly suspect a Chinese national. And he says to me, " this is a very good poster." I just crossed the line. We have to edit that out. I crossed. So, he said, "This is a very good poster."

James Kennedy: he said so who is sponsoring you to present this information? And I said one is sponsoring you to display that poster. I said no.  So, interestingly, a Chinese person who I strongly suspect was a Chinese national was the only person to really engage me on the poster and the entire, what he wanted to learn was who was behind that, right? So, it's very very strange.

James Kennedy: So needless to say, as we work towards developing mine, I do more and more work on the rare earth side and I start having other meetings with the Pentagon and people on the House and Senate Armed Services Committee and talking to three different administrations and I just repeatedly would say to them, look, here  the crisis isn't so much that we're not mining this stuff, it's that we don't have any downstream capabilities. And they'd say, "What do you mean it's not a mining issue?" And I would point out that at the time, the United States still had a reasonably healthy heavy mineral sands industry.

James Kennedy: And the heavy mineral sands industry would always kick off, monazites that were heavy that had a large percentage of rare earths. And I would say to him, look, all of the heavy rare earth production associated with monazites was shut down because of this 1980 NRCA regulation. fix that. and America could start producing byproduct rare earth from what is currently mining waste. Yeah. Nobody cared.

James Kennedy: I actually, worked with some folks and we produced what became a piece of legislation, a bill that was introduced in the House and in the United States Senate twice and was offered up as an amendment to the NDAA at least twice. And basically, that's what it said.  They said, "Look, here's how we solve the nuclear source material issues related to rare earths. and here's a way to responsibly address the thorium issue.

James Kennedy: I don't know if you've seen that video, but that was one of the we got over a million hits on that or a million views and my buddy was like, "Hey, we're as cool as Justin Bieber." I'm like, "Yeah, we're real people." Anyway, thorium problem is a good video to see, but all of this goes back to a thorium issue.

James Kennedy: There is a high correlation between primary rare earth deposits, heavy rare earths, and thorium, right? So, I know this gets super complicated.

Daniel O'Connor: Jim, could I interject just for a second…

Daniel O'Connor: if it Yeah.

James Kennedy: I'm sorry.

Daniel O'Connor: No, that's okay. before we get into some of the more technical details, and it's good. the audience will appreciate at a high level back two se 2007 8 n when you were trying to get attention to this issue and they really didn't have anyone they said we've seen reports around 2012 from Congress identifying this problem just from your opinion again you're one of the more seasoned veterans of the rare earth space in the United States…

Daniel O'Connor: why was there this aloofness or just bliss a lack of any care curiosity. What was behind that

00:10:00

James Kennedy: So, this is a very academic thing.

James Kennedy: The Pentagon as we had president after president squeeze the Pentagon to reduce cost in the Pentagon. The Pentagon was essentially forced to take a free market just in time inventory posture.

James Kennedy: I met with Cornell Holder, who was the head of the DLA, and we had this discussion in front of a room full of 150 people, and he said, "You are absolutely right. That's exactly what happened at the Pentagon."  At one point, and I think it's 1989, I have all this in papers, the Pentagon sold its entire rare earth stockpile and then it essentially got the Department of Def Energy to also sell its entire rare earth stockpile.  And all of this goes back to this, Milton Freriedman free market, just in time inventory mentality.

James Kennedy: And that's great if you're Toyota or you're Ford Motor Company, but if you're the defense department, that is not how you operate, especially if another country's controlling all the critical materials that go into the long long tail procurement process for your weapon systems.  So that is in fact exactly what happens and I think a lot of people have a hard time grasping that but this is the problem.

James Kennedy: The next thing that happened is a spec two companies specifically Molly Cororp one was Chevron. Good company. Sold Lanthanum Sold some serium as a catalyst. Pretty much the rest was junk. They had no use for it. Rare earth. The NDFB magnet hadn't been invented yet. So that was their entire business model. Malik Work One goes out of business and…

Daniel O'Connor: right?

James Kennedy: and it goes out of business mostly because of environmental pressure from the state of California and declining profits as China enters the market.

James Kennedy: And if China enters the market and produces rare earths based on their natural distribution, you have this massive title wave of serium and lanthinum coming on the scene and it wipes out their core business. So that's MP1 or Molly Cororp 2 is a completely different animal.  Molly Cororp 2. its entire, business strategy was three letters, IPO, essentially. They were going to launch, that was it, and everybody else would take it on the chin. it was a really good story.

James Kennedy: They could legitimately say we were the largest rare earth mine in the world. It's true. But 83% of the production at MP was lanthenum and serium. And if it was 1980 that's a great business model but come 2010 it's a horrible business model.  And so I went into the Pentagon and this is first time I was there I told you that story. Next time I went was 2010. And I had IPO Daniel O'Connoruments and I brought them in and I showed the Pentagon experts.

James Kennedy: I said, the geocchemistry of MP is incompatible with US and economic and national security needs. It doesn't match up. It's not a fit." And I said, you can look at these Daniel O'Connoruments they've produced associated with their IPO." and I showed them that over 80% of the revenues that they were projecting came from either markets that did not exist or…

Daniel O'Connor: 

James Kennedy: capabilities they didn't have. Now you're saying, Jim, how can that be true?

00:15:00

James Kennedy: if you can remember all the way back to when that IPO and that company launched, one of their biggest products was a water treatment product that made up a huge proportion of the revenues that never happened. I'm trying to I can't remember the name of it, but basically that was a product that was a market that didn't exist. And then capabilities they didn't have.  They were talking about downstream metals, alloys, and magnets. But the magnets that people needed were high operating temperature, heavy rare earth magnets. And they did not have any turbium, disposium, or homium. So they couldn't make a high temperature magnet, right? They could make a lot of novelty magnets, right, for toys and novelty items, but they couldn't make any high temperature magnets.

James Kennedy: And I pointed this out to the Pentagon and I'm literally verbatim line by line going through the entire technical Daniel O'Connorument showing that, this whole thing is a mirage. they have, high-profile investment bankers behind them, and they've got a bunch of, well-known, investment companies like Pegasus and Resource Capital and Morgan Stanley. So, they believed them and not me.  And I continually harped on them. I'm like, look, there's a rare earth problem, there's a heavy rare earth problem, there's a downstream refining problem, and then re refining and separation. And then of course all of the deficits we have from metals, ma alloys all the way to magnets. And they just didn't respond.

James Kennedy: They would say,…

James Kennedy: Molly Corp has a mind tomagnet strategy." And I'm like, that's a slogan, but nothing more. And yeah,…

Daniel O'Connor: I have to sorry to interrupt you,…

Daniel O'Connor: Jim, but it's a pretty rich slogan nowadays. There's a lot of money flowing around.  So just

James Kennedy: that's what they want to hear, Look, you

James Kennedy: you work in the Pentagon. They tell you you never took chemistry. you no physics background. They tell you there's a national security issue for critical materials. Figure it out. And the first guy that you connect with who tells you how he's going to how it's so easy to fix, maybe you guys have a couple beers, who But you want to believe him,  You want an easy solution. You don't want to go back to your boss and go, " man, this is really bad. there's deficits in heavy rare earths. There's this thorium problem. Nobody's got any capabilities to manage thorium and other. If somebody comes in and goes, "It's easy, Look, it says right here on our IPO Daniel O'Connorument, mine to magnet, done." And I think, that that's a big part of the problem.

James Kennedy: I think if the Department of Energy was a lead on this, they do a better job. The Defense Department is I'm not saying the Department of Energy, we all know they have their own issues, but I don't think the Department of Defense should have been in charge of this. And

Daniel O'Connor: …

Daniel O'Connor: so Jim, and again being mindful of time, I want to really ensure this is very valuable history that you bring firsthand experience today. You've got in Missouri an asset. You have a mind We have a heavy rare earth problem. Even the Department of Defense, which has 15% ownership of MP now,…

Daniel O'Connor: is currently They're looking for heavy rare earths all over the world. tell the world about the asset that you have in the heartland of the United States.  Right in the middle in  Sorry.

James Kennedy: So this is so much.

James Kennedy: Let me just say this about us. We have a permitted mine. We have a 43101 equivalent that's completed. Our SK1300 will be done by the end of this month. We have all of the long lead time equipment selected. We have a separation technology partner that is providing performance guarantees. This is a national lab.

00:20:00

James Kennedy: It's a national lab of Canada. Technically, it's the Canadian governments providing performance guarantees. Why do we believe them? Because they spent at least 12 years trying to solve the separation problem. And they did it in a very pragmatic way.  They hired a bunch of Chinese people doing it in China, brought them to Canada, and they spent 12 years using, Chinese talent to build a Canadian system. And the Canadian system works. Sure, it's old-fashioned solvent extraction technology with all of the capital and inventory issues. but it's good.

James Kennedy: we have some other things in our pocket I can't really talk about, but let's just say this. from an investment banking standpoint, we have permits to operate and we have proven resource all the way through to proven separation. And we let me go over the numbers. in our phase one we can produce about 325 tons a year of turbium dprosium and homeium. Now that doesn't sound like a whole lot but that is actually 12% of global heavy rare earth production.

Daniel O'Connor: What sorry Jim what percentage of that tonnage that you just mentioned…

Daniel O'Connor: what percentage of US demand would that meet in 2026 approximately?

James Kennedy: The problem is there is no demand right now…

James Kennedy: because nobody's making magnets here on volume, right? Everybody's staging. So, let's go out to 2028 MP would have its phase one done for the first thousand tons and then it's got its 10X…

James Kennedy: where I don't know if it's all at once or sequentially they're going to bring on another 10,000 tons a year and then you have EVAC and EVAC was I believe supposed to already be up and running and they're going to push that right it's hard yeah

Daniel O'Connor: I think they just finished it,…

Daniel O'Connor: I think. But we got to double check.

James Kennedy: Plus, you can't believe anybody in the rare earth business. so let's just say 2027. Okay, MP in theory has got 1,000 tons a year of production. EVAC is maybe 2,000 tons a year production. We grossly exceed that. we can provide for 10,000 tons a year of mixed high operating temperature magnets right these are the high-end magnets from EV to fighter aircraft right not Mgrade magnets not earbud magnets these are all like primo magnets so

James Kennedy: Yeah, we can support 10,000 tons a year in phase one.

Daniel O'Connor: And that and…

Daniel O'Connor: that's amazing because we have our heavy rare earth rankings. Okay, right now Myanmar Myamar is number one. The rebels they've even recognized us publicly.

James Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel O'Connor: They said Thank you for ranking us. I've been told don't go over there and accept the award though.

James Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bad idea. So, that's a whole another funny funny thing. But yeah, for sure we can support about 10,000 tons a year In phase two we can support me think this through probably about 15,000 tons. And in phase three we would be producing almost 800 tons a year.

James Kennedy: And it's over 20,000 tons a year.

James Kennedy: So we could supply let's call it 100% of the probable NDFB magnet production coming online exchina

Daniel O'Connor: On that note,…

Daniel O'Connor: if there are crit critics out there that would say, yeah, maybe James Kennedy theoretically has does have those deposits. However, to economically pull them out,…

Daniel O'Connor: that's a whole different calculus. Can you talk to us and any investors that possibly are watching this about the economics of extraction in your Missouri mind

00:25:00

James Kennedy: Yeah. …

James Kennedy: this is a fun topic because phase one, we're essentially reprocessing a tailings lake with 40 years of accumulated tailings from mining. And there's two things you in steel. You don't want phosphates and you don't want sulfur. So all of the heavy rare earthenriched fluo appetite ended up in the tailings lake and all of the pyite ended up there. And USGS has confirmed this.

James Kennedy: we have four resource reports with essentially no deviation. Universally, the measure of rare earths in the raw tailings is about 5,000 ppm. A lot of people will go, " that's too low." And you know what? I'd agree that if that's the only thing you were getting, you're pushing the envelope.  But that fluoro phosphate mineralization makes up 10% of the tailings deposit and the phosphate values equal nearly 50% of the revenue and income on the project.

James Kennedy: So, you could say that we're getting the phosphates for free or you could say we're getting the rare earths for free. And then there's other values. we have a very high level of gallium in there. the florine is super valuable. the pyite contains cobalt, nickel, copper, polarium, malibdinum. and then there is a lot of small particle magnetite. So there's a bunch of magnetite that escaped the system and was lost.

James Kennedy: There's about a million tons of magnetite at 20 microns and essentially we just touch that with a mill. and we have just demonstrated that we can produce a rough just call it a% magnetite. That is some extremely valuable stuff.

James Kennedy: so half of our income is from rare earths and the other half is from byproducts. So the fact that the tailings runs at a half a percent rare earths is fine. It's fine.

Daniel O'Connor: So I hear what you're saying. So phase one based on these tailings high level s are there. So with all there's a flurry of deal making Washington is apparently a wash with geologists and miners and people that say they can solve this problem. we know that you have been discussing the government. obviously it's confidential. you've been in touch with them, but from the standpoint of your company and what sounds to be an incredible opportunity for access to heavy rare earth elements, what do you see as sort of the next steps to really bring this to fruition? And what kind of support do you need? Do you need partnerships?

Daniel O'Connor: 

Daniel O'Connor: What do you need?

James Kennedy: So we have completed like I said NI43 101 equivalent S the SK1300 will be done.

James Kennedy: We've completed in detail all the prefeasibility work proven out everything all the way to demonstration levels. so the next round of financing for us is we will be seeking a $150 million loan so that we don't blow up our capital structure.

James Kennedy: So, $150 million will cover the next six months, the completion of the full feasibility Daniel O'Connorument, fund four different optimization projects we're running right now. and give us sufficient funds to onboard the professional team, key employees, and secure long lead time equipment. And all of that will allow for us to Hold on, I got to plug my phone in, guys. Super embarrassing.

00:30:00

James Kennedy: that will allow us to be able to do a startup as early as 24 months.

Daniel O'Connor: So Jim,…

Daniel O'Connor: on that note, what about XM? Because we've seen them be pretty active. I understand that's export import, but that agency could be a partner that would be a benefit for both for both you and for them. Yes.

James Kennedy: I'd love it. we're talking to them. the most rational partner for us would be the defense department or I guess it's the department of war. But the department of war, there's something called the office of strategic capital. And the office of strategic capital literally has a mandate that would allow it to come in and provide funding at this level.

James Kennedy: so we would like that to happen. we also have a strategy for securing that 150 million which we're going to roll out in the next couple weeks. I don't think we're going to have a problem getting to 150 million and I don't think it's going to take very long. as I said before, at 325 tons a year of TBD YHO, it's 12% of global heavy rare earth demand for high temperature magnets. It is over 90% of non-Chinese TBDY Ho globally, right?

Daniel O'Connor: Yes. No, it's

James Kennedy: If the separation happens in China, it's out. the total maximum theoretical, by the way, a lot of these guys aren't even making it yet. They're just saying we account for what would theoretically be production at, some Linus can produce relative to the other guys a lot, but in the big scheme of things, not very much at all. and then who's very real, but Energy Fuels has a serious problem securing enough monazite,…

Daniel O'Connor: Mhm.

James Kennedy: domestic monazite.

James Kennedy: And then there's other companies that also claim they can separate the heavy rare earths like re elements and then some refiners. But we went through the whole list and we rounded up and we're total global available in the future now and in the future 25 tons a year and most of that is allocated, right?  Lionus would be the big producer and I'm pretty sure they have obligations to long-term relationships.

James Kennedy: So, if you're building a high temperature NDFB magnet economy outside of China, like a China free rare earth magnet platform,…

James Kennedy: there is not enough TBD YHO to go around. Without us, there's no game, right?

Daniel O'Connor: Jim, what…

Daniel O'Connor: what about a large defense contractor? Because we've heard and we've had people speak with us off record that specific companies have challenges with their supply chains more than even the The auto companies are more dialed in and a little more efficient than the defense companies and they have that rule. Jim, don't forget January 1st, 2027, all of their product should be coming not from China. So, that's aside if we'll be able to adhere to that.

Daniel O'Connor: But it just seems like a no-brainer to me that obviously, due diligence, everything else it checks out that maybe even a big defense contractor could work with you. Does that make sense or is that not reasonable?

James Kennedy: So, you use this term no-brainer.

James Kennedy: I think it's a literal term when you're talking to people in Washington DC. There's literally just no brains there. we are trying to have adult conversations But they're really not happening because the overcommitment by career politicians, by career folks in the Pentagon, by folks driving investment decisions for the past and current White House. All that legacy attention is gone into just two companies,…

Daniel O'Connor: Heat

00:35:00

James Kennedy: Lionus and MP.

Daniel O'Connor: Yeah. …

James Kennedy: MP has zero realistic heavy rare earth production capabilities and Lionus has a very very small amount. they like to talk about future developments coming online so that they can make it look like it' all the larger quantities of heavy rare earths are fiber seven years out.

Daniel O'Connor: sorry. …

James Kennedy: 

Daniel O'Connor: Jim, just and I think this is an important topic because MP just came out with their quarterly statement and they are starting they got $150 million franched. No, let's give them a break. I mean, they're doing a lot. We got to give them some credit here. So, they've secured huge deals. Okay, we're very supportive of them. I mean, we're going to be critical of everybody.

Daniel O'Connor: Okay, ourselves, it doesn't matter. But, realistically, how far away is their heavy rare earth separation facility at Mountain Pass? How far away are they, Jim?

James Kennedy: So for MP to claim that they can produce heavy rare earths,…

James Kennedy: the first thing they do is they move the marker over to Gatal.

James Kennedy: right and they include gatalinium as a heavy otherwise there's nothing to talk about there's been I believe 70 years of assay work on that deposit very consistent no changes whatsoever turbium dprosium holium and…

James Kennedy: all the other heavy rare earths nth all the heavy lanthnides are at trace levels It's impossible.

Daniel O'Connor: Okay, Jim,…

Daniel O'Connor: in writing at this facility. They're targeting commissioning mid 2026 200 MT metric tons a year dprosium turbium. I mean that's just 12 months.

James Kennedy: It's impossible.

Daniel O'Connor: Hold on. Mid20. That's 6 months away, Jim.

James Kennedy: So I'm just going to tell you that numbers…

James Kennedy: if used appropriately do not lie. So the total maximum theoretical assay values for turbium and dprosium is 16 parts per million. Right? But that's using the high side. That's like saying that I get heads every time I flip a coin. That's very unrealistic. more realistic is that the turbium disposium average at let's say eight or nine or 10 parts per million.

James Kennedy: So if you run their normal production rate and you multiply it all out, there's no way that they can produce over with normal recoveries.

James Kennedy: They couldn't produce one ton a year. Just Work it out right now. it's one ton a year…

Daniel O'Connor: Yeah. No,…

Daniel O'Connor: I So,…

James Kennedy: because their production rate is a million tons a year and it runs at 8% rare earths. So you have 80,000 tons of re and then you concentrate all that.

James Kennedy: But no matter what happens starting from the raw ore all the way through this maximum 16 parts per million is immutable. It doesn't So,…

Daniel O'Connor: so I get The math I'm going to go back and study their report again. We're analyzing Jim, so what I hear you saying is even if you commence tomorrow, let's say the funding comes in, how far are you out to mine time? are you 12 months? I think you may have mentioned that. Forgive me if Yeah.

James Kennedy: it's if we got the $150 million in today,…

James Kennedy: we could do it in 24 months or less. We know that.

Daniel O'Connor: That's right.

Daniel O'Connor: Okay. Right.

James Kennedy: Yeah. So, that's the clock. you're saying, "Hey, Jim, but the game started in when I showed up at the Pentagon, 2009, right?

James Kennedy: We put this in front of years to the Biden administration. So it was ignored for two years there. And this has been in front of the current administration every single day of the administration's,…

00:40:00

James Kennedy: sence. and there's no action on it.

Daniel O'Connor: …

Daniel O'Connor: we're going to have to change that. I mean, it really sounds like again, remember our mission. We have a patriotic mission. We're independent. We're objective. We're going to be critical. We're going to follow the truth. And we are patriotic.

James Kennedy: yeah. Yeah.

Daniel O'Connor: We are going to accelerate the exchina rare earth supply chain. We love the Chinese too by the way. we have Chinese firms. It has nothing to do with that. you got to have Any national economy it's a brainer. So in any case I think we want to have another one of these. we are compressed for time here. I wanted Dustin to kind of wrap this Jim, what we want to do is we want to do an article about your company and mine. we're going to bundle it with this video as well and…

Daniel O'Connor: we want to really make sure that your operation in Missouri gets going. It's extremely important for our national resilience. That's what we believe.

James Kennedy: Yeah. Listen,…

James Kennedy: You say you're talking about being a patriot. I put 17 years into this and for the largest percentage of that time, We were putting a national solution forward based on ways to recover existing mine waste that contain heavy rare earths. We put ourselves at the end of the line. yeah, so I am committed to getting this done. and the obstacles we face are purely political. They're charged with self-interest.

James Kennedy: They're charged with ignorance. They're charged with fear of being proven fear of people realizing you had made a mistake. I mean, so look, we want to get this done.  We'll do whatever it takes to get it done and nobody can stop us because there is no other geopolitically significant source of permitted heavy rare earths outside of China's control.

James Kennedy: just doesn't exist.

Daniel O'Connor: On that note,…

Daniel O'Connor: Jim Dustin, first of all, Jim, we want to thank you so much for taking the time. As I mentioned, we're going to continue to write about you. we're trying to put together a fund ourselves, an ETF fund that would be a managed fund.  So, we're working with bankers and financeers and that's a whole another sharkinfested water that we're having to deal with. But we're with We're behind I wanted to thank you very much for taking Dustin, any last minute comments?

Dustin Olsen: Nope. this was a very insightful conversation and…

Dustin Olsen: James, your history is fascinating. I enjoyed the stories.

James Kennedy: My wife would not agree with you,…

James Kennedy: but she would say it's Very taxing. Let's just All right.

Dustin Olsen: I have no doubt. I'm sure it's been met with its own ups and downs but it's been fascinating to listen to and hopefully we have you again on the show to continue the story. but with that, for those who have been listening, if you like this episode, please give it a thumbs up wherever you listen to this podcast and we will catch you guys in the next episode.

Daniel O'Connor: Thank you.James Kennedy: Thank you.