S1 E48: Unlocking Malaysia’s Rare Earth Potential w/ Dr. Syed Muhammad

Dustin Olsen (00:40)
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Rare Earth Exchanges podcast. You're joined by me, Dustin, and our special guest, Syed who is studying rare earth's potential in Malaysia. Syed, how are you? Welcome to the show.

Dr Syed Muhammad (00:53)
Thanks for having me and I'm excited to have conversation regarding the RE potential of Malaysia.

Dustin Olsen (00:59)
Perfect.

Yes, we're excited to hear from you. And for those who are watching this show, we're having some technical issues. So Syed's camera feed has turned off. So you're going to see a lot of me, but Syed, to kind of get started, we would love to hear a bit of the journey that drew you to Malaysia and its potential on Rare Earths, what started all of that.

Dr Syed Muhammad (01:21)
Yeah, that's an interesting question actually. Again, thank you for having me. So just little give me about my small introduction that my name is Dr. Ibad. I am a geoscientist actually, specializing in upstream aspect of rare earth element and critical minerals. Basically, ⁓ I am working in UTP, University Technology Pekonaat ⁓ and working in a different project.

given to us from Pekronas. So my work closely linked with Pekronas as we all aware that Pekronas is the biggest oil and gas corporation in Malaysia, which while focusing on traditional energy is now actively exploring low carbon and low energy businesses. So this connection actually helped shape my understanding of the country energy transition plan and the strategic importance of critical mineral. We cannot say that Pekronas actually is a main public RE minor.

role actually is more strategic, they just focus on investment, partnership and R &D sector. So, my actually my primary research and practical focus is mostly on geology, I am a geologist in a background, my PhD degree is also in geology which comprises mineralogy, geochemistry and offer sedimentary rocks actually.

When it comes to the RD domain, I am working more toward extraction behavior of rare earth element actually because we should know the host and then according to the host, we should imply the extraction behavior that how we can extract rare earth element from that particular host. So my recent peer-reviewed studies on Malaysia stream RD resources has contributed significantly to a clear scientific understanding ⁓ of the country's RD potential.

⁓ Right now a major part of my current work involves designing and implementing a sustainable RE-Exception approaches. We all are aware that RE is very important but keep in mind that the exception should be sustainable and environmentally friendly it will be benefit in more certain ways. So my work focus currently is to improve efficiency by minimizing environmental impact. Critically I design and patented an industrial scale electrokinetic mining system.

which has demonstrated promising performance in a controlled trial. The task was given to me from the patronus because patronus initially trying to get the technologies because Malaysia originally have a host of fine adsorption clays and some other RE mineralization but still Malaysia is in a progress to achieve some mid-stream and downstream technology.

⁓ We are restricted to have technologies from China or you can say that still countries are going to have a technology in term of RE extraction. So Malaysia tried to build their own technologies. So my actually work was focused from last three years to build a system which can extract RE but in a sustainable and environmental friendly way. So I kept reading literature from last three years.

discussing so many things and trying to get information from so many other literature as well that how can we make our environment friendly techniques to extract Re. So therefore I designed and that one is actually enough experimental setup is already built up which we call it electrokinetic mining system. Furthermore I am also working as independent Re consultant.

advising Malaysian firms and engaging with international analysts who are closely watching South East Asia's critical mineral landscape. So yeah, once again, I'm glad to be here today to share deep insight on Malaysia's potential and the realistic path towards responsible and sustainable development.

Dustin Olsen (04:56)
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it sounds like you've been really busy over there. ⁓

Dr Syed Muhammad (05:00)
Yes, running experiments.

Dustin Olsen (05:02)
Absolutely. So from your perspective, what's one of the most misunderstood fact about Southeast Asia's rare earth resource?

Dr Syed Muhammad (05:12)
So, usually south east Asia comprises or we can say that it is blessed with fine adsorption phase. Then we compare actually the RE host ⁓ as discussed in my paper or we look at global picture first. Rare earth element actually the heart of modern technology. They are permanent magnet used for electric vehicles motor, wind turbines ⁓ and robotic also. They are also used in a catalyst or batteries.

also used for defense technologies. So countries with reliable RE supply chains tend to have a stronger position to high tech and clean ⁓ energy industry. Now if we shift our lens towards Malaysia, the interesting part which usually people unaware is that the country does not just have one type of rare earthen source. I already discussed in my paper, it actually has a suit of different deposit types.

In my paper ⁓ I outline some categories ranging from iron adsorption clays to placermonazite and xenotite, Re rich shale also and weather granite also and I compared also that malaysian shales granite and river sediments have comparably high Re content as compared to many other Re means the same resources in the world. Why each play a different role when we think about industrial application actually.

For example, if you consider ion adsorption clays, we all aware that they are very easy to process actually and they have higher in life wearer elements such as LACE, ND and PR and these elements actually feed directly into the magnetic supply chain ⁓ such as easy motors and renewable energy systems. So, countries like China and Myanmar dominate this type of resources.

Malaysia has similar geology places, it is a strategically interesting position. We all are aware that Malaysia is blessed with a tropical region which actually supports the sedimentation or you can say the deposition of granite rock. Iron and adoption clay is actually the weathering part of the sedimentary or granite rock. So Malaysia has blessed with granite a lot. So we already have

so much deposit I think in term of statistics around 16 to 18 million tonne reserves of IAS is already reported in Malaysia which in turn suppose if we go for the processing and if we got the RE from those deposit it turns around 8, 110 billion ringgit of money you know so but we should keep in mind that still

this is just a result you know, in Malaysia is not now at a stage to do some midstream or downstream industry in a commercial way. Still it's in R &D position suppose like my university we got a project from the company and we are trying to build some R &D experiments to do some initial testing so that we can later go for the commercial purpose. But if we develop a downstream and midstream ⁓

it will be really beneficial. Otherwise, if you talk about other deposits such as xenotime and monazite, this Malaysia is already familiar because it has a historical tin and heavy mineral sand industry. So, these minerals can carry both light and heavy iron and they are relevant for more specialized applications. So, what this mean actually is that Malaysia coastal and river placer deposits are not just

they actually represent a potential Pd stock and high value downstream product. As on top of those in my paper I already discussed that shale and weather granite is also one of the know main could be be could be main producer for RE in the future. Right now of course IAC is the main process for RE because the processing is easy shale and weather granite it

hard for the processing but we can rely on them also in future also if in case our supply and demand needs more RE. So this is a thing which is typically people not much aware. As a geologist I was working all those rocks you know like in Malaysia I spend around 13 years my PhD work also dominated by so many field trips so I travel Malaysia a lot I know all the rocks there.

and therefore I can tell all those things with my experience. So yeah, this is hopefully I provide you the answer you want.

Dustin Olsen (09:26)
Yep. No, this is great. So I want to ask a question about why Malaysia's rare earth story has been so overlooked in the global conversation until recently. that because you were just kind of talking about this where they don't, didn't quite have the infrastructure to, to, to deliver. that, is that the reason why, or is there another reason why Malaysia has just been kind of brushed under the rug when it comes to this resource?

Dr Syed Muhammad (09:49)
Yes, previously

you can say even before 5 years I was working in miniature from last 13 years. So it was from I think 2021 or 2022. Before that I was working in patronage also for different projects. The country was not looking at RE sector or RE domain. But since 2021 you can say then I joined a project around 2022, of 2022. The company patronage investing in RE. Because

At that time they are aware or they already have some energy domain but shifted towards RE might be due to the restrictions because we are aware that actually China is exporting RE in a globe and they have 70 % around 70 % of results they are supplying. Then they put a restricted ban you know then not only Malaysia but other countries also think about to

have their local RE. So at that time countries were thinking seriously about the RE first in the upstream sector, midstream and downstream usually with literature, with literature or with published papers and with geological maps, stratigraphic stratigraphy. We know that what are the rocks present and we already have some initial studies to conduct that how much RE is present in it whether it's

are economically beneficial or not. When country, especially Malaysia, know that they are economically feasible and we are blessed with our most, you can say, easy process host actually, which is IAC. So, and in the meantime, China is also restricting and you can say that Malaysia, China have some type of, you know, relationship also with their technologies and with their RE export and import thing.

But when Malaysia got to know, even in my paper I published that we have so much host REs and if we develop locally here in Malaysia, we are not dependent on the RE export or permanent magnet export because now there is a backbone of countries economy. So therefore I think they are shifted towards the more seriously about the REs but we should keep

in mind that still we are developing. We cannot say that we are initially lying. We can say that we are stepping a ladder by step by step. We are in a stage, hopefully by upcoming years, we have our own industry. Even ⁓ the government or MEDA, ⁓ Ministry of Science also and Malaysia government also now they are seriously focused on ⁓

their own downstream and mid-stream. They are also try to have some celebration with some foreign companies also. As you already know that yeah that's the one of the reason also that Lynus which is Australia RE processing plant. It was in Malaysia since 2012. But since 2012 or you can say until 2020-21 it was not much highlighted.

It was working in one of the state of the Pahang. I visited there also. But it was not in the highlight till this issue came. So Lynus actually having a host material coming directly from Australia. They are not using a host or a deposit coming from Malaysia. But of course Lynus industry is here. They have all the technologies. They have a processing plant.

they can use Malaysia host materials which is still in debate. Recently I think JSLinux already have a collaboration with Lynus to have a processing of around 3000 ton annually for the permanent magnet processing unit. So it is still in the phase but they had I think the collaboration is already done. So Lynus will operate

for Malaysian also in the recent time and they are still in discussion going on. So, this is the way I think the countries are and same thing as right now I am also you know teaching environmental science also. since few decades I think last decade the environmental concern is more highlighted now. So, when environmental impact is higher

CO2 footprint and everything the most of the countries moving towards low carbon energy technologies. So same thing the REs in terms of permanent magnets they use for EV, wind turbines they are the backbone for all those renewable technologies. So if we shifted towards environmental friendly technique in the future not rely on the renewable sources.

we have to keep in mind that we have a good strength of RE support technologies and RE minerals or we can say the permanent magnet and so on.

Dustin Olsen (14:39)
That's fascinating. it's great to hear that the government and other companies are taking an interest in what Malaysia has to offer. Sounds like technology has been a big hurdle to overcome in terms of processing the ore. But are there other hurdles or technical constraints that Malaysia is facing that would prevent them from?

taking center stage in any of this.

Dr Syed Muhammad (15:03)
Yes, yes, same thing as for me, I started my work from a scratch actually. I just took samples from the raw material, we are trying to leave ARI by our own self. So it's not just the easy things to do actually. There are lots of challenges coming down the way. When we put our self in the soil and trying to get even a small portion of ARI, there is a stat telling us that

to just get 1 kg of RE, there are tons of host rock required actually. So it's not an easy process. Previously it was telling the mining industry, but now it's moving more towards chemical industry. Like we need to know how much chemical is using and what type of same thing with environmental concerns. It's just not a leaching actually anymore. We should keep in mind that while doing all this

leaching from RE from the commercial perspective or from the land. We should keep in mind that it will not impact on environmental issues such as the groundwater contamination. There are several studies reported that due to leaching the groundwater table was affected. Same thing land degradation and air pollution because usually if you are already aware about it I think that ⁓ usually ammonium sulphate is the one which is using for the leaching agent.

and ammonium sulphate is non-biodegradable. So it has some impact. A study has already demonstrated that it has some impact while leaching re from the host crop. Usually it is using for the ionic adoption place which is I think Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, they all are in the tropical region so they all have a same type of host crop. But still ammonium sulphate is non-biodegradable.

So, has some impact. So, keep in that mind the land degradation, air pollution, soil pollution, same thing deforestation. You see, if we keep in mind that we are going towards the environmental friendly approaches so that we can get all those EV motors and wind turbines and non-renewable sources. In the meantime, if we deforest our, you know, our area.

then what's the thing actually we are balancing everything like we are taking out the forest or we are deforesting and the meantime we are shifting to whatever ⁓ CO2 footprint. So what's the point actually we should keep in mind that deforestation or our tropical regions or our all those forests they keep in there. In the same time we focus on all those domain also without affecting them actually. So Malaysia actually restricted now very seriously.

Previously it was reported that RE mining was not taking it seriously so there was a mining activity going on without these concerns. But now Malaysia is very restricted about all those things even now in government scale. Even for me also I have some local companies in Malaysia to just to create a flow sheet so that we can present in front of the state level or national level because they concerned that

techniques you are using or the process you are using should be environmental friendly. They should not affect the land, the sustainability issues or environmental issues. So we should keep in mind. That's why there is some delay that we are not getting that pace because we should keep in mind that environmental concern is our priority. Those are the challenges which we are facing right now but hopefully with time we are cover up all those issues.

and we are going towards the sustainable approaches in terms of RE leaching and without affecting the main scenario of the Malaysia.

Dustin Olsen (18:44)
So that's really interesting. And we've heard that about Malaysia, just the environment just suffers greatly from the mining efforts. But is that the biggest blind spot there or is there something else that decision makers in Malaysia just aren't really aware of? Like, is this the biggest issue or do you think there's something else going on that they're just not seeing?

Dr Syed Muhammad (19:09)
No, right now, because now I can say before two years or three years you can say that people is not much aware about it. But since the technology boost up and we have so many projects, so many companies, even local companies shifted their domain to work in the RG sector. So people get awareness and now they are more concerned about their own land, their own properties. That has some issues with the land possession also.

like suppose in my work also, I build up my equipment in a lab scale. Like I had some ⁓ initial trials and we successfully leached RE in a good concentration as compared to conventional leaching. But same thing when ⁓ I try to move my work in a commercial way, like I need a land, know, to do the experimental things or ⁓ leaching, there is some issue because they are malicious, very restricted about all those things.

ask us to follow all the SOPs without concerning or damaging the land actually. So it takes some documentation time. We need approval from different authorities. They are right actually from their side because they are more concerned about their own people safety, the environmental issues. So this is a challenge, but ⁓ it's new actually from in case of Malaysia from last few to four years it boost up. So with time when the technology map will be there.

the process will be smooth actually but still we can say that it's still in the laboratory way or R &D sector actually. There is only I think one company MART I think which is commercially actually leaching RE from the Srirag side where my university is also located. They are doing RE leaching from the land but still

they are not getting any commercial value from it because it is still in the processing part. With time they also stop the mining activities there to have some concern regarding environmental issues or something. They keep monitoring to have a safe or environmental approaches but soon, hopefully soon the process will be smooth by keeping in mind that all those sustainable issues will be solved.

and then hopefully Malaysia will have their own RE leaching, RE leachate actually but the story is not end at that place you know after getting RE leachate like suppose it's from my equipment also I just get a leachate, RE leachate other challenges which is still Malaysia lacks that if you already aware that those RE leachate you know in the liquid form they have around 56 percent of impurities and 44 percent is only RE

So we have to separate impurities from RE first. That's also the biggest challenge actually. We should have technologies to separate impurities and approximately for the commercial point of view, the RE should be 99.91 % or 99.99 % pure, should be pure to use as a commercial perspective. Malaysia in R &D sector is still trying to reach that value. I think there is no report from my…

point also my work is until to get the leachate from my equipment the processing unit will be the different but I still hear that we did not reach the 99.99 percent removal of impurities but still the story not end after that after getting the RE actually the point is we need to separate RE from that the combination of all RE whatever our need.

Usually for the permanent magnet we know that D by N D E T R they are essential to separate those from the RE is still a challenges we are still working on the technologies such as membrane filtration or the electro mining technologies or some other technologies also I not in that domain particularly my work is mostly focused on upstream and military but I heard that we are still in the processing unit in R and D sector actually until now.

But same thing, if you have some help from outsourced, like those having already achieved all those paths, they have some technologies, they have some formulas, you know, to achieve all those. Because even if you see the published literature, they are not much concerned or they're not much talking about all those issues. Which actually, how I know, because when I'm running my experiments, I've got all those challenges, you know, which was not reported. Mostly they are not reported on those cases.

But when we run our own thing, we know that these are the challenges. But still, we are on the right track. We are still trying to achieve something. And if we are able to achieve all those separation of also, we hope we have our own local REs in Malaysia. And we can think about to export also REs in which is economical beneficial.

Dustin Olsen (23:53)
That's great. you're trending in a direction with your comments here that Malaysia has come a long way in the last few years. There's a lot that's been learned. There's a lot of interest that's going on, a lot of support that's filtering in, maybe not as fast as we'd like, but it's coming. So looking into the future with proper investment, of course,

How far away do you think Malaysia is from producing a viable product that can go into the market?

Dr Syed Muhammad (24:23)
It's not a long actually, I think government already announced that they have a plan until 2029 or 2030 to have their own RE supply chain here in Malaysia. We already have a collaboration not only the local industries in Malaysia but the foreign countries also. Suppose JS Link is already collaboration with Lynus here in Malaysia to have their processing plant here.

those with those parties or those collaborations hopefully we achieve our goal as soon as possible. Same thing actually Malaysia is blessed I am telling that Malaysia is blessed with all those hosts you know which is very easy to process. So if they engage here for their investment or their collaboration or their mutual funding then it will beneficial for both ways because

some like in this domain if you can say South Asian hub Malaysia is still progressing a bit faster as compared to the processing units or because of liners that they are here as compared to except China actually only the Malaysia is the one who has a processing plant here which is which is actually doing a commercial ⁓ RE. So, ⁓ if not far away we are still in the process but we cannot say the

proper deadline but still we are in a right track and hopefully we will achieve this path as soon. Same thing we are also put awareness actually with trying to suppose ⁓ when I publish my paper so then people get much aware about all those Malaysians you know, RE host or source rock present in Malaysia. So if we work like this like

My machine is already built up and I have some promising results also. hopefully we will publish that work also soon. So these types of work attract ⁓ foreign or attract the companies also to invest or to have some collaboration here. So we should keep in mind also that it should start from R &D but it should ⁓ slowly or gradually going towards midstream and downstream.

Even if you know about the Ministry of Science and Technology Malaysia mostly now it's already in it's also interesting. I was invited mostly last year regarding the RE proposal. They asked me to prepare the RE proposal that the but same thing they are interested more towards the end product like like they need a for the permanent magnet or for the catalyst or all those things but still then we describe all those

challenges to them also because we are in the industry sector, R &D sector, so we know all about this. So now not except Patrona but ministry also and some other organization also even Green Snow companies also in Malaysia, we are investing because they know that there is a potential and with time we have our own army locally which will be beneficial in all ways.

Dustin Olsen (27:17)
That's fantastic. We're coming to the end of our time here, but I did want to ask you one final question is with all of this in mind, you've learned so much. Are there other research questions that you're most interested in exploring next, like trying to find those answers that could unlock more doors or potential for Malaysia?

Dr Syed Muhammad (27:37)
Yes, as you can say as a researcher, when I put myself in this domain, I have been for last three years, even for starting a machine, it's not an easy job. You have to keep in your mind all the materials, all the leaking solutions and if we concerned about environment also, we should keep in mind about environmental concern in terms of pH also and so many other issues while doing the experiment.

when we going toward the commercial way if we already knew those challenges which is already build up and faced up in the lab scale hopefully we will have less challenges in the field as compared if we directly jump into the field with some new technology for those traditional technologies which is already in the field for some years hopefully there will be no problem but when then we jump

in the field with a new technologies or can say environmental friendly techniques, we have lots of challenges. So, for my side that I am very excited that ISPI goes towards the commercial day with those type of technologies. Still there is some issues regarding the land acquisition or permissions and so many things, but I am hoping that this technology or these type of technologies, not only this technology, those other environmental friendly technologies.

will be implemented in the field and the same thing the story will not end up there after getting leashed hopefully I put myself in the processing unit also that how can we expect all those are from each other or from the impurities there is one more point I need to discuss here that if we go towards the environmental friendly techniques such as in respect of technology it's the one way

But if we use a non-biodegradable leaching agent, it will less impact the environmental issues also or land also. In the same way, it will bring us a leachate with less impurities. So if we have less impurities in our leachate, it's easy for us to process or to separate RE. So there is both advantages while using one is environmental integrity technology and other is non-biodegradable leaching agent.

which Malaysia or already built in my domain in my RSE sector, we already built a non-vigorous level of equipment. Although it is not commercial, we did not check in a commercial way but in a market scale, was a success rate is very high, but it is still in a testing phase and it is not a commercial viable. So, I am excited.

that with environmental filling technologies if we use non-biodegradable leaching agent in the field so we will get less impurities or very low impurities. So hopefully with that we get some easy processing for the separation process. Of course that domain is a different domain but it should start from because as a geologist I know the host actually.

If you are trying to the RE from any rock, you should know the chemistry, the physiology, all those things of the rock also first. So that you know that how RE is behaving in those particular rocks, how we can take out those RE from those rocks. So this is the initial knowledge. So with my work, I already have all those knowledge. So I'm interested that if we go for the processing unit, it will be a keep benefit with my experience. And I'm excited really.

that if he goes toward the end product because if you are keep working with one domain but still you are not getting the final product you are still curious that okay what will be the end result you know so yeah I'm excited for that one if he has some opportunities in the future as well.

Dustin Olsen (31:17)
That's fantastic. Well, Sy, thank you so much for joining our show today. You've got our support. We're excited to see where you go next and the influence that you'll have there in Malaysia with the research and the knowledge that you're gaining and sharing with everyone there. And hopefully in the future we can get an update from what's going on in Malaysia. But for those who are listening, if you found this episode helpful, please give it a like wherever you listen to this podcast.

If you don't want to miss a future episode, please like and subscribe to the channel. So, thanks so much for joining and we will catch you soon.

Dr Syed Muhammad (31:50)
Thank you Dustin, thank you for having me.